Texas Is spanking a part of raising children or is it simply child abuse? The hot-button issue of spanking recently returned to spotlight as a Texas mother, Rosalina Gonzales, was sentenced to five years of probation for spanking her two-year-old daughter. When the paternal grandmother noticed the child’s butt was red, she had the child taken to a hospital. They found Gonzales’ daughter healthy, with no lasting injury. Still, they notified the Department of Family and Protective Services who remanded custody of Gonzales’ three children to the grandmother. Gonzales must complete parenting classes and her children will be returned when the Department of Family and Protective Services decides she is ready to have them back. In court, the judge told the mother that spanking your own child is not allowed. “You don’t spank children today,” said Judge Jose Longoria. “In the old days, maybe we got spanked, but there was a different quarrel. You don’t spank children. You understand?”

Judge Longoria might be interested to know that despite his opinions on spanking, in Texas the law is as follows:

Abuse does not include reasonable discipline by a parent/guardian if child not exposed to substantial risk of harm. Family Code § 261.001. [Civil Code]

Parent/step-parent is justified to use non-deadly force against a child under 18 when the actor reasonably believes necessary to discipline, or safeguard or promote child's welfare. Penal § 9.61. [Criminal Code]

Interesting. Based on Texas’ own Civil and Criminal codes you can spank children today, whether Judge Longoria likes it or not. The mother seemingly did nothing wrong as there was no deadly force used and there was no risk of harm. Yet her children were taken away until someone else tells her when she can have them back. And she is on probation for five years.

When I was growing up I got the occasional swat on the behind and the fear of my dad’s belt (I outgrew the latter when I realized he had no intention of actually using the belt). For a while that fear was a good deterrent. My own children have gotten a swat on the behind or the hand and it has never worked. They would not understand the concept of me taking off my belt and if I did they would think I was playing some sort of bizarre game.

Spanking or a swat on the butt – or the fear of the belt that never actually comes off – is one thing. Beating your child is another. The problem is that there is a fine line between the two and most parents will find it difficult to walk that line. Some people can and they make it work. Others either cannot instill that fear or they go too far and cause irreparable damage. Temperance will always be the best course of action.

What kind of opinions do you have about this? Is spanking child abuse? Does it harm a child and lead to aggressive behavior? Is spanking an appropriate deterrent that can play an important role in raising a child? Or is it an archaic parenting skill that needs to be left in the past?

http://www.nj.com/parenting/guest_bloggers/index.ssf/2011/06/is_spanking_a_part_of_being_ra.html

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Make spanking kids illegal: Corporal punishment leads to problems later in life

by Murray Straus

June 23, 2011

Research shows that spanking does correct misbehavior. But it also shows that it works no better than other modes of correction.

When a Texas judge this week handed down a sentence of five years' probation to a mother for spanking her child, he set off outrage and ridicule. "You don't spank children today," Judge Jose Longoria lectured Rosalina Gonzales in the courtroom. "You understand?"

The reporting on the case was cursory - it failed to point out that spanking is, in fact, legal in Texas and neglected to mention that Gonzales had a history of abusive behavior - but the cat was out of the bag. A raging debate has been reignited: Traditionalist parents - and millions of people who vividly remember getting spanked or hit with a belt when they stepped out of line as a kid - cannot believe that government may actually try to get inside the home and regulate the way they discipline their children.

"I Spank My Kids: Come and Get Me, Judge Longoria," wrote Nancy French on National Review online.

The reality is, spanking and other corporal punishments are currently legal across America, provided they don't cause serious physical harm. The question is whether they should be. As one who for many years has studied physical discipline and its effect on children, I say: absolutely not.

Repeated surveys show that about 70% of Americans believe that spanking is sometimes necessary and does not harm children. They also seem to think that the possibility of prohibiting spanking would mark unprecedented government interference in the lives of families.

Neither belief is correct.

Research shows that spanking does correct misbehavior. But it also shows that it works no better than other modes of correction, such as explaining what a child did wrong, doling out timeouts or depriving a child of privileges.

Moreover, research clearly shows that spanking has a serious cost. It tends to weaken the tie between children and parents and increase the probability that the child will hit other children - and the probability that the child, when grown, will hit a dating or marital partner. There is more than 90% agreement on these and other side effects, which have been found in more than 100 studies. There is probably no other aspect of parenting and child behavior in which results are so consistent.

It's understandable why few people, even few psychologists, believe that "moderate" spanking harms children. They say: "I was spanked and I turned out well."

But that's not the way we measure the potential harmfulness of a given act. Like smoking, spanking is a "risk factor" - about a third of heavy smokers die of a smoking-related disease. That means two-thirds can say, "I smoked all my life and I am okay." Does that mean smoking is okay? No, it just means they are one of the lucky two-thirds.

When someone says, "I was spanked and I am okay," he or she is one of the lucky majority, rather than one of those harmed by spanking.

Most people are unaware of the large body of research on the harmful side effects of spanking because they are not told about it, even in child psychology textbooks. I analyzed 10 books published in the 1980s, 10 in the 1990s and 10 published since 2000. They averaged only half a page on spanking. None reported that more than 90% of the studies found harmful side effects.

Would a legal prohibition of spanking mark unprecedented interference in family life? Hardly. Until the 1870s, a husband had the right to use corporal punishment to correct an "errant wife." When the courts started to rule that this was no longer valid, it was widely regarded as outrageous government interference. Just as wives were given the right to be free of corporal punishment by husbands, prohibiting spanking would give children the right to be free of physical attacks in the name of discipline.

There is an emerging international consensus on this issue: 24 nations now prohibit spanking. The 1979 Swedish no-spanking law, the first, has been very effective. It has no criminal penalty. It simply sets a national standard for how children should be treated, informs the public about the standard and provides services to help parents having trouble with their children.

We should learn from the research and from the world. In the U.S., nonpunitive laws to reduce spanking by informing and helping parents use nonviolent methods of discipline could make a great contribution to improving parent-child relationships and reducing psychological problems and crime.

Straus is the co-director of the Family Research Laboratory and professor of sociology at the University of New Hampshire. He is the author of "Beating The Devil Out of Them: Corporal Punishment in American Families and Its Effects on Children."

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2011/06/23/2011-06-23_make_spanking_kids_a_crime_violent_discipline_has_serious_side_effects.html?print=1&page=all

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Child discipline treads a fine line

June 22, 2011

The state Supreme Court has rightly given a man a second trial allowing a jury to decide whether the striking of his stepson was justifiable discipline; the trial judge had refused to allow the defense attorney to use that as a defense. The high court focused squarely on a defendant's right to present a defense, no matter how weak the evidence might be, in making its sound technical ruling. But its split 3-2 decision raises a deeper societal issue: the extremely hazy question of what qualifies legally as parental discipline versus child abuse.

Previous court cases reveal a wide range of outcomes in determining discipline or abuse, and dissenting Hawaii justices in the aforementioned defense decision thought the use of force was not acceptable parental discipline. Perhaps the time has come to acknowledge the fine line — and quick escalation — between discipline and domestic violence, and reassess what legally constitutes parental corporal punishment.

In Corpus Christi, Texas, a judge this month scolded a mother for spanking her 2-year-old child, although her open hand left no bruises on the child's buttocks.

"You don't spank children," Texas Judge Jose Longoria told Rosalina Gonzales. "You understand?"

Gonzales had reached a guilty plea agreement with the Corpus Christi prosecutor. She was sentenced to five years probation for causing injury to a child and has lost custody of her three children.

Less draconian was the Hawaii conviction by a jury three years ago of 46-year-old Cedric Kikuta of misdemeanor assault. After his stepson had fed the family's dog in September 2007, Kikuta said he noticed a stain on the floor and the boy, 14 at the time, said he would be unable to remove it. The stepfather said he then told the boy that he would ground him for a year if he himself would be able to remove the stain.

After the youth did not respond except to slam a glass door, Kikuta said he then pushed the boy with two hands, losing his balance because of recent leg surgery, dropped his crutch, and pushed the boy harder than intended. Kikuta said the boy swung the crutch at him, and Kikuta punched him twice "to try to make him let go of the crutch." The boy's nose was broken and teeth chipped.

The stepson denied swinging the crutch and said Kikuta punched him about five times in the face. After the boy fell to his knees, he said, Kikuta punched him on the back of the head two or three times.

Circuit Judge Rhonda Nishimura refused to allow the jury to consider taking into account the defense of parental discipline, which Hawaii law says is "not designed to cause or known to create a risk of substantial bodily injury," which, by statute, includes bone fractures.

Indeed, the federal Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act defines child abuse and neglect as including a parental or caretaker act resulting in "death, serious physical or emotional harm, sexual abuse or exploitation" of a child. The Kikuta case is further complicated by the fact that the boy was physically stronger than his stepfather, and a physician said the boy's nose was "easily broken because it was a thin bone."

In the Hawaii high court's 3-2 ruling upholding a decision by the Intermediate Court of Appeals, Justice Simeon Acoba wrote that Judge Nishimura should have allowed the jury to consider parental discipline as long as there was related evidence, "no matter how weak, inconclusive or unsatisfactory."

All states have laws that define child abuse and most, including Hawaii and, yes, Texas, do not prohibit parents from spanking their children. Other kinds of physical confrontation may unintentionally result in injury and should be weighed in the context of parental discipline where appropriate. But the growing gray area of what is allowable discipline, murky beyond the occasional spanking, should get some scrutiny, so that the issue is not raised merely as a possible defense after a child is harmed.

http://www.staradvertiser.com/editorials/20110622_Child_discipline_treads_a_fine_line.html

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Missouri

Make sure whipping comes with a positive message

by Scott Colom

Nothing will get you laughed out of a barbershop quicker in Columbus than suggesting parents should think twice before beating their children. I discovered this several months ago when I tried this argument with my longtime barber, Bobby Jordan.

The conversation started when Mr. Jordan, a man with no shortage of information or opinions, suggested that parents should start whipping children to teach them discipline, like his parents had done him. In response, I suggested that the problems with children wasn't a lack of whippings but a lack of parental guidance, and I suggested there were unintended consequences to corporal punishment. This argument was roundly criticized - even by the younger barbers.

Events of the last week, however, have put renewed focus on the debate about the use of physical discipline. Two local parents were recently arrested for child abuse. One allegedly beat his 18-month-old daughter so badly her leg was broken, and the other allegedly beat her 7-year-old son with a car motor fan belt. It's hard to imagine what children that young could do to make these actions appropriate for a parent, but the arrests provide an opportunity for us to think about the best way to discipline children.

First, I believe the effectiveness of corporal punishment on past generations is overblown. Adults who have self-discipline often believe this is because of the discipline they received from their parents. They fondly recall the whipping with the extension cord or tree branch and argue those beatings kept them on the straight and narrow. Yet, this mistakes causation with correlation.

A lot of my friends from childhood in jail today received tough beatings from their parents. That's not to say they are in jail because of the beatings, but it demonstrates that beatings aren't a magic ingredient for successfully raising a child. Without love, attention, guidance and positive role models, beatings are meaningless, or worse.

For example, there can be unexpected repercussions to physical discipline. Many psychologists and physicians argue that spanking children increases emotional and behavioral problems and teaches children to resort to violence to resolve conflict. The more children are spanked when they act out, especially at a young age, the more likely they are to think violence is the appropriate way to respond to an action they don't like.

Spanking children at a young age can also stifle critical thinking skills. As unnatural as it may seem, when a child makes a mistake, the parent or adult should discuss what was wrong with the decision or the behavior before or after the discipline. Children should have an opportunity to explain their behavior, and the adult should respond to those explanations. Otherwise, there's the risk the child will not develop decision-making skills, such as the ability to do a cost/benefit analysis, and, instead, become accustom to being told what to do and afraid of making decisions.

There are supporters of corporal punishment who point to Proverbs' "Spare the rod and spoil the child" to support their position. Yet, this verse is consistent with the need to be cautious and strategic with the use of the rod. Spanking a child when they misbehave can teach discipline and proper instruction, but doing it reactively, out of anger, and without explanation can increase the anger in the child. And Ephesians 6:4 says, "Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord."

During discussions about this issue, people always ask me whether my father whipped me as a child. When I say yes, they look at me like they've made their case. Of course, they don't know to ask me about the years he coached my YMCA basketball team, or to ask about the mandatory trips to the museums each summer, or about the nights he listened to me read the sports page, or about his dissatisfaction when Andrew or I got a B. So, while my father definitely knew how to use a rod, it was the rod combined with the lessons and guidance I received from my parents that taught me the discipline and instruction of the Lord.

Scott Colom is a local attorney.

http://www.cdispatch.com/opinions/article.asp?aid=11842

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Corporal Punishment: Mothers' Self-Recorded Audio Gives Unique Real-Time View of Spanking

ScienceDaily

June 22, 2011

In a new corporal punishment study based on actual audio recordings, mothers spank, slap or hit their young children, sparking crying, tantrums and whimpering. Believed to be the first study of its kind, 37 mothers recorded up to 36 hours of interactions with their children, says psychologist George W. Holden, Southern Methodist University, Dallas. The data capture the moments before, during and after punishment, which ranged from spanking with a belt to admonishments while hitting.

In one recording, a mom spanks her 3-year-old 11 times for fighting with his sister. In another, a mom slaps her son for turning the page of a book while she reads to him. In still another, a mom spanks her 5-year-old when he refuses to clean up his room after repeated warnings to do so.

Those are examples of the corporal punishment captured by a study of 37 families in which mothers voluntarily recorded their evening interactions with their young children over the course of six days, say the study's researchers.

The audio recordings, believed to be the first of their kind, provide real-time data captured before, during and after mothers disciplined their children with spanking or slapping, said psychologist and parenting expert George W. Holden at Southern Methodist University, Dallas.

The unique recordings capture from 12 hours to 36 hours of data from each mother, mainly the daily ordinary activities such as fixing supper and bathing children, said Holden, lead researcher on the study.

But occasionally conflict erupts, sometimes followed by corporal punishment.

The data go to the heart of the long-running debate over whether parents should spank their children.

"In the case where the child was slapped for grabbing a book, it was not 10 seconds later he did it again," said Holden. "The amazing thing is, the mom was reading so nicely to the child and the child was being so normal, reaching for the book or wanting to turn the page or point to something."

Believed to be first audio data of naturally occurring spanking

With its "event-sampling" approach, the research is a unique opportunity to understand what's going on in the life of a family before spanking, including whether conflict gradually escalates or instead blows up out of nowhere, Holden said. It also reveals what occurs with spanking, such as verbal reprimands, admonitions, yelling or time-out.

"Despite the fact there have been hundreds of studies on spanking, I think with these audio recordings we have the first data of naturally occurring spanking," said Holden, who has published five books and more than 55 scientific papers on parenting and child development.

"Virtually all previous studies have relied on verbal reports, either asking parents how often they spank, and a few asking children how they felt about being spanked," he said. "This study is not affected or biased by memory or attitudes or orientations toward discipline because it's what's happening in the home."

The research, "Investigating Actual Incidents of Spanking in the Home," was presented June 3-4 at the international conference "Global Summit on Ending Corporal Punishment and Promoting Positive Discipline" in Dallas.

Holden, a professor in the SMU Department of Psychology, was a conference organizer and is an advocate of positive alternatives to spanking as cited in his psychology textbook "Parenting: A Dynamic Perspective" (Sage Publications Inc., 2010).

Chaotic interactions indicate parents didn't alter practices

Participants in the study included families of various ethnicities, ranging from affluent to middle income to poor, said Paul Williamson, a researcher on the study. Acts of corporal punishment also varied, from spanking with a belt to admonishing children while hitting, said Williamson, an SMU psychology doctoral student.

"One interaction in particular, a child of 2 or 3 years of age had either been hitting or kicking her mother, and in response the mother either spanks the child or slaps the child on the hand and says, 'That'll teach you not to hit your mother,'" Williamson said. "We've captured interactions with families that are very chaotic. Some of them are actually quite difficult to listen to. That tells us, at least for some families, they're not inhibiting or suppressing the kinds of parenting practices they use."

Spanking and negative unintended consequences

Researchers invited mothers to participate in the study through fliers distributed at day-care centers, said Williamson. Mothers were informed of the study's purpose to look at parent-child interactions. The mothers agreed to wear the audio recording devices each evening for up to six days.

"We're finding a wide range of reactions to the spanking," Holden said. "Some children don't appear to react, whereas the majority react with crying, some tantruming and some whimpering that can go from just a few seconds, to our longest is about 75 seconds."

Parents didn't shy from talking with the researchers about spanking and their belief that it's effective and necessary discipline, the researchers said.

"So many parents believe in the technique and are not defensive about their use of it," Holden said. "They erroneously believe it's a useful technique to raise well-behaved kids."

Spanking widespread globally, despite harm to children

From 70 percent to 90 percent of parents spank their children, and it's practiced in the vast majority of countries worldwide, Holden said. Studies have shown that its single positive effect is immediate compliance. Increasingly, however, the evidence is clear that spanking is associated with many unintended negative consequences, he said.

"Children who are spanked are more likely to be aggressive toward other children and adults," Holden said. "Over the long term they tend to be more difficult and noncompliant, have various behavior problems, can develop anxiety disorders or depression, and later develop antisocial behavior. They are more at risk to be involved in intimate partner violence, and they are at risk to become child abusers."

The discipline also can escalate, Holden said.

"We know that the majority of physical child abuses cases actually begin with a disciplinary encounter that then gets out of control," he said. "So for that reason alone, it's not a good idea to use corporal punishment."

The researchers hope their study ultimately will help parents use positive discipline and less punishment, he said.

"It's not the once or twice a year that a child may be swatted, but it's the kids who are exposed to frequent corporal punishment -- that is the concern," Holden said. "Kids need discipline, but centered on mutual respect and love, without potentially harming the child with corporal punishment."

Besides Holden and Williamson, other researchers included Grant Holland, SMU psychology graduate student, and Rose Dunn, an SMU psychology department graduate. The study was funded by Timberlawn Psychiatric Research Foundation in Dallas.

The "Global Summit on Ending Corporal Punishment and Promoting Positive Discipline" was sponsored by Southern Methodist University, the Center for Effective Discipline, the Center for Children and Families, the Child Rights Information Network, the Global Initiative to End Corporal Punishment of Children, the Family Violence & Sexual Assault Institute, and the Institute on Violence, Abuse and Trauma.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110622145908.htm

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Canada

Spanking saved for serious situations

by RITA POLIAKOV

There is one situation where Bracha Mirsky will spank her children. The mother of five learned this two decades ago when her backyard went quiet.

"The twins, they were two-and-a-half. I had them in the backyard and I had the gate firmly closed. Five feet off the ground, there was a hook and latch, so I felt they were secure," said Mirsky, a parenting guru in Toronto and mother of a set of twins and triplets.

"They go around the side of the house where I can't see them. I keep listening for them, I don't hear them."

Nervous, Mirsky popped her head outside.

"I look one way. No kids. The other way, the (backyard) door is open. There's a tricycle pushed up to the door."

Heart in her chest, Mirsky ran out to find one twin around the front. The other was headed for the park, two roads away.

"I was having a heart attack all the way there. I cross one

road, I don't see him.

"I cross the other road, he's in the park. He sees me, smiles and runs the other way," she said.

"He had made this into a game and he had no idea ... the danger he was in."

So, she did what she thought might save his life.

"I spanked him until the smile came off his face. He never crossed the road again. I'd go to jail rather than risk him crossing the road."

But Mirsky, author of What Makes Kids Tick and a certified parent and infant consultant, wouldn't have gone to jail.

According to section 43 of the Criminal Code of Canada, parents are able to use reasonable force to discipline children. This law, originally enacted in 1892, was upheld by the Supreme Court of Canada in 2004, though changes were proposed. The use of corporal punishment for children under two or for teenagers was ruled out, as was using instruments such as rulers and belts, or hitting a child on the face or head.

A bill that would have eliminated section 43 was proposed soon after. In 2008, it was amended and almost passed, but it never came to a vote because parliament was dissolved for an election.

So the debate remains. Is spanking a way of teaching respect or is it a path to fear and resentment?

For Mirsky, one thing is clear.

"It's a sign of parental failure, and parents have to understand that," she said. "In cases of emergency, and I mean emergency, I am willing to say that you have to use it. And what I mean by emergency is your child's life is in danger, but for no other reason."

Lana, a Sudbury resident, was also spanked as a child. Now, with three children of her own, she refuses to lay a finger on them.

"It was multiple times a day. We rarely got the belt, but that happened on a few occasions," she said of her father, who would do the disciplining.

"Growing up, I was really, really angry. It caused me to be a bully at school. I was really physical. When people would call me a name, the first thing I would instinctively do is slap them," she said.

As a parent, Lana doesn't like the idea of spanking. She uses alternate methods to get her point across.

"I know there are more effective ways, as opposed to being physical. I'd feel more sad than anything else to have to do that to anybody," she said. "(My kids) know that respect is important to me. When one of the rules are broken, you have one of the things you like taken away from you. It's very effective. They cherish their cell-phones."

For Lana, parenting is about mutual respect.

"I think we're raising adults, not children," she said.

Elizabeth Levin may agree. According to Levin, a psychology professor at Laurentian University, spanking isn't the best disciplinary option.

"Professionals strongly encourage people to try alternative methods," she said, adding that the best way to avoid Mirsky's situation is preventative measures.

"Parenting is really hard work. Spanking sometimes seems easy, but if you have a two-year-old ... you have to think that, 'I have to make a situation that's OK for two-yearolds. Breakables have to be put away,' " she said.

To Levin, spanking a child teaches them the wrong lessons.

"You are modelling that the way to deal with disruptive behaviour is using aggressive behaviour. I think if parents thought this through, they'd realize that this isn't the message they'd want to convey to their child," she said.

Spanking, according to the professor, also has to do with size.

"(Spanking) sends a message, which is the biggest person, or the strongest person is the person that needs to be listened to or obeyed," she said.

This is fine when the child is young, but once he or she hits a growth spurt, family dynamics may change.

"There may come a time in the family's life when the 10-year-old is bigger than the mom," Levin said, adding that if size becomes synonymous with authority, parents may have difficulty disciplining their child at that point.

For Levin, spanking is an ineffective way to change behavior, and can get confusing for children.

"Spanking might momentarily get the child not to engage in the action you didn't like, but it doesn't tell the child what behavior you want them to do," she said. "It says it's alright to spank somebody, which is basically violence ... let's say one child hits another child, and you spank your child and say you shouldn't hit. That sends a contradictory message."

While spanking in itself isn't abuse, it can easily get out of hand, Levin said.

"If a parent spanks a child mildly once or twice, there are probably not going to be a lot of effects. But one of the problems of spanking is it can easily get out of control. If you spank because you're angry at a child, you may spank harder than you thought you were going to," she said.

This was never Chris's experience. Chris, 44, who didn't want his full name used, isn't against spanking. Mainly because he was spanked as a child. And it seemed to work.

"My mother was a disciplinarian. I'd have a chance to explain myself. If I was being responsible, I'd get two or three mild to moderate slaps on the rear end. That was just to get my attention. Then I'd get a big hug and a kiss and asked, 'Do you know why you were spanked?' "

The Sudbury resident thinks discussing the punishment was an important part of learning right from wrong.

"We were always on our best behaviour. Right now, it's second nature for me to open a door (for others). I was very well raised," he said.

Ginette Cyr, a public health nurse at the Sudbury District Health Unit, does not recommend spanking as a punishment. For the nurse, spanking leads to a lose-lose situation.

"When a parent spanks their child, it's typically because the parent didn't know what to do. Most have said they felt bad for spanking their child," she said. "The parent feels bad and the child is feeling hurt, also."

According to Cyr, spanking simply confuses children, and can create lasting negative effects.

"The child doesn't always understand what he or she did wrong because of a spanking or yelling. It's not always

attributed directly with the misbehaviour," she said. "It's creating a stressful environment for the child to be growing up in. Sometimes, the child might not know what is expected of them."

This could lead to a lack of confidence.

"Children who live in a stressful environment and are walking on egg shells because they're not too sure what's expected of them, they tend to have less confidence," Cyr said.

Instead, Cyr recommends positive parenting approaches.

"Use directed discussion, giving clear, calm instructions," she said. "(Use) logical consequences, quiet time or time out. With all of these forms of positive parenting approaches, there's a relationship there between the parent and the child, where the parent has taught the child what's expected of them."

Positive reinforcement works for Aiden Fenerty, a five-year-old with a lot of energy.

"He's had a little bit of problems in school," said Vickie Fenerty, Aiden's grandma. "They're using sticker books and have success. (It's about) positive attention verses negative attention. ... Apparently, stickers work really well."

Fenerty is against spanking.

"I don't agree with it," she said while watching Aiden play in Bell Park. "Since my children were raised, a lot of ideas came out, like time out. That seems to work better. It gives everybody a chance to think."

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http://www.thesudburystar.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3166476
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